Talk: Happily Ever After

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Press release

Press release was posted today: http://www.abcmedianet.com/assets/pr/html/033110_01.html cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 21:10, March 31, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks.  Robert K S   tell me  20:39, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

Flash-sideways?

In the infobox for the episode, why do all the sideways episodes have it as "Flash-sideways"? There used to be no hyphen, which looks better IMO. Same goes for the Flashforwards. Those were also changed. Anyone know why? (Kdc2 02:28, April 7, 2010 (UTC))

Producers spelled it as such in interviews. cgmv123TalkContribsE-mail 02:33, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

The producers themselves, or the random journalist who typed up the interview? --LeoChris 02:41, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

They both need to be changed back I think... or at the very least, the flashforwards.(Kdc2 03:02, April 7, 2010 (UTC))

"Flash sideways" is the noun form ("This is a flash sideways"). "Flash-sideways" is the adjective form ("flash-sideways reality"). Pretty standard rule for hyphenation applicable to all two-word adjectives.  Robert K S   tell me  06:51, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, the better question is whether this is really a flash sideways at all for Desmond, in the same way that his "flashbacks" in 3x08 and 4x05 were not really flashbacks but were rather time travel for Desmond's consciousness. In those episodes, the "flash" sound effect was omitted from the transitions. Ditto here--the typical flash-sideways sound effect was not heard. Desmond apparently was traveling between realities.  Robert K S   tell me  06:55, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Well, "Flashes Before Your Eyes" was a flashback. Just one that flashed back to the time travel. --Golden Monkey 07:46, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the flash-sideways sound effect was played just before the last transition (from Sayid to Penny) Jbillones 13:37, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Because at this point, he wasn't switching realities anymore. He stopped doing so when Widmore's experiment was over. But until that no sound was played. Personally, I think this was brilliant by the sound crew. No sound means he's making a mind-travel, sound means he's not. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 07:28, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Desmond and Penny never knew each other in the sideways timeline?

Why is this? We don't know what stopped Desmond from doing the yacht race either, and at that time Desmond and Penny were in a relationship in the original timeline.-- Nzoomed  talk  contributions  22:20, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Daniel's Accent

In the bloopers section, his American accent is listed due to his two parents being British. This isn't necessarily a blooper considering he was in Los Angeles and, as far as we know, could have been raised there.--HaloOfTheSun 03:14, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Uh, someone already removed it, so never mind. But someone will probably try to add it back, so~ --HaloOfTheSun 03:16, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Yup I removed it, it's not a blooper until we have evidence of where he was raised. Children of immigrants pick up their accent from the society they grow up in, not their parents. Also it seems to me that Eloise has a much stronger American accent in the flash sideways, it was always a bit mid-atlantic in the original, but is more American now, which could be evidence for her spending a long time in the US. The younger versions of Eloise had a purely English accent. Beelzebubbles101 02:38, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Removed first episode to end in flash-sideways world. LA X part 1 ended in it.LEHLegacy 03:41, April 7, 2010 (UTC)LEHLegacy

The major blooper isn't his accent; it can be easily explained as it was above. What is really weird is Faraday's dark complexion. With parents light and blue-eyed like Widmore and Eloise, it'd be almost impossible for him to be born with such dark hair and such deep brown eyes. Fredgie 09:45, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• • • • GENETICS! Going on 20 years of giving writers excuses to design characters differently than their parents.--Gibbeynator 11:28, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe Jeremy Davies found it difficult to fake an English accent. Similarly you should ask why did Richard's accent change from Cuban to American after so many years and not British? Is it because Jacob brought many Americans to the island over the years and thus his constant exposure to Americans made this happen? Why would Jacob do that? And why is both Jacob's and original MIB's accent American? -- Jodon1971 12:51, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• • I would guess Richard picked up his American accent primarily from Jacob. Conversing with Jacob was probably his first major experience of spoken ( as opposed to written) English.

Besides, Charles Widmore's accent is Australian (Alan Dale's natural accent), not British. There is no reason why Widmore can't be Australian but a long-time resident of the UK (explaining Penny's accent and the fact that Widmore has a London residence). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spikebrennan (talk • contribs) 2010-04-07T09:00:46.

I'm Australian. I would not have picked Dale's accent as Australian until it was pointed out to me. He speaks a natural educated English but somewhat more toffee than a Queen's English Adelaide speaker or some parts of Melbourne. But its not at all obvious. In this role I'd pick him as a London businessman possibly a couple of steps above his origins (class wise). Eloise on the other hand speaks with a decidedly working class English accent but putting on airs. Some English people will be able to pin her accent. I just checked and Dale is actually a New Zealander so his Widmore accent probably wasn't much of a stretch for him. Still he's been doing the successful businessman role forever. The hardest part is that Dale has presumably lived in the States for years and aussies and New Zs tend to pick up american accents very easily. In general I've learnt to accept bad or inappropriate accents because they are everywhere. Certainly not blooper land.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   14:24, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

My apologies. I'm American, and we dumb Americans tend to regard New Zealand as not really a distinct country from Australia, sort of like how we dumb Americans tend to regard Canada as not really a distinct country from the United States. Spikebrennan 15:03, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

No need to apologise. We know how you think better than you know yourselves. We know less than you know about the States (of course) but more about the rest of the world than you would dream is knowable. We have to because we aren't the centre of the known universe. Australians regard New Zealand as sort of a backward, mini version of us but so lacking in significance that we don't really care. We like you a lot tho coz you make grouse TV shows full of Australian actors!    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   15:18, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

I'm a New Zealander, and to me Widmore has intermittent flashes of what is definitely a mild Australian accent, but mostly he seems as described above as a "London businessman possibly a couple of steps above his origins". Alan Dale was born in NZ but spent the last 30 years acting in Australia ( remember "Neighbours" LOL )and seems to have picked up the accent. Alan Dale's natural speaking voice ( e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27pSce4_Avk ) is about halfway Aussie and New Zealand.Beelzebubbles101 02:53, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

• I'm Irish. The actress who plays the elder Eloise (Fionnula Flanagan) is also Irish. A few of the words she pronounces still have what I would consider a native Irish inflection (probably only discernable by people from Ireland). Frequently, a very posh upper class Irish accent can be mistaken for an English one, especially if an Irish person was educated in England. Her accent would come across as English for that reason, which is consistent with her background (but not perhaps her character's). The teenage Eloise maintains the half-Irish / half_English quality (In spite of the excellent Alexandra Krosney being American). The middle-aged Eloise (Alice Evans, whom I also like) loses this quality and her accent is distinctly "English", which would be consistent with the actress's background. Should a lack of consistency between the actors who play the characters of Widmore and Hawking, and the respective accents of those characters, be considered a blooper? I don't think it should, especially if the producers made a concerted effort to overcome this problem. It remains to be seen if this was the case with Daniel Faraday/Widmore. -- Jodon1971 15:44, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

About Alan Dale's accent - I haven't noticed it either until "The Package" (S06E10). While talking to Zoe, his Geophysicist, moments before Jin's appearance, Widmore slips out the word "infirmary" in a way only an Antipodean would. Fredgie 05:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Regularly Spoken Phrases?

Someone put Charlie's line, "I've seen something real. I've seen the truth," as a regularly spoken phrase. I honestly can't remember hearing that any other time, and I checked the phrases page and it's not on there. Anyone else have any idea who might have said it before? Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions

While not exactly a regularly spoken phrase, Charlie's line reminds me of John Locke's description of the smoke monster when he first encountered it: "I've looked into the eye of this island, and what I saw was beautiful." Both lines refer to aspects of the island/the island itself, and how it is held in high esteem, even by those who don't fully understand it. Patrickbrownfield 06:00, April 8, 2010 (UTC)PatrickBrownfield

That's a real stretch. It's not at all parallel, nor even similar. The only similarity is the coincidental "...I('ve) [a conjugation of the verb "see"] something..." With that vague of a pattern, I'm sure there are tons of others we can call recurring phrases. But they're really not except in someone's imagination. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions

Best episode summary sentence EVER!

"Sayid comes up and breaks some guy's neck and tells Zoe to run." --Frakkin Toaster 04:18, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Trek reference?

I wasn't gonna say anything, but someone added Dr. Manhattan, so I'll say the other direct-indirect reference. "The Inner Light" was an episode of Star Trek:TNG, in which Captain Picard is knocked out by radiation from a probe, and wakes up a different man. He lives a whole lifetime in the space of 20 minutes, and when he wakes up, he remembers the whole thing and is profoundly affected by it. Given that "The Constant" was confirmed by TPTB to be heavily influenced by another Picard-centric TNG episode, and given the similar "what-if" themes of both "The Inner Light" and tonight's episode, I am pretty sure that it was intentional. Include?--Frakkin Toaster 05:23, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• I say no. Direct references only. -- Clayburn 05:54, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
  • I think you should send that in as a question for the next LOST podcast. Seriously, I'd like to know the answer! DesmondHumeWillBeMyConstant 23:23, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Removed as having no direct reference(s) in the episode, also because the reference referred to is a trope and so common in all forms of SF that there are literally countless examples - so why pick these 3?    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   00:52, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • Kane--removed? It was never there in the first place. The idea is common, and not only in SF---it's the basic premise of "It's A Wonderful Life," as well. I think it's a direct reference because another Desmond episode, the Constant, was confirmed to be based on another Picard episode. I don't do podcasts, but if someone asks, I would like to know if they confirm it as a reference. Never mind, I see someone did add it, but you removed it. Contact is a stretch, but I am sure they had the TNG episode in their minds as they were writing this one. --Frakkin Toaster 00:57, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
    • I'll be happy to submit the question to Darlton for the podcast. Will report back if anything comes of it. DesmondHumeWillBeMyConstant 03:55, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• Contact (Jodie Foster) 1997,Star Trek: The Next Generation S5E25 "The Inner Light": Although Desmond spends only a few seconds unconscious in the room, there is a simultaneous longer experience in another timeline/reality. (Movies and TV) Tell us how you get on! Thanks, --MichaelFC 22:54, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
• its also the whole point behinde An Occurrence at Owl Creek BridgeOmggivemaafningusername 01:08, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Last line

Does Desmond want to "show him something" or "show them something". Will he be trying to give the experience to all 815ers or does he think he knows who Charlie's match is and wants to track down Claire?--Rdicker 05:51, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• tvguide.com interview with Cusick (4-8-2010)--Cusick: Yeah, at the end [of the episode], Desmond says "Where's the manifest? I need to show them something and it's going to be beautiful."
• Show "them" something. Marc604 06:00, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• The real question is why does he need the passenger list and how is he going to use it, if it is something he can use in the OT or not? -- AlexDeLarge 12:11, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Sounds like "them" to me - why would he need the whole list of names just to tell Charlie something? And just a pet thing - how can someone say "Clearly that line is" when it isn't clear at all - at least a number of people think its "them", so even if that is wrong - it's not "clearly".    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   13:25, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• I suppose, Desmond means all our Island heroes flying with the plane. He wants perhaps to connect them again with each other. So if they will "remember" the parallel reality, they could... but what?... --Kosmomerz 20:26, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• I've confirmed at ABC's website Episode Guide that the last line is indeed as many people thought, "I just need to show them something". Now I believe the questions are what (in the manifest) will he show them? and who are them?. - Bougleux 05:59, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • I think the manifest isn't what he's going to show them, but a way to find the them. Hawkdeath 09:52, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• A few things are leading me to believe Desmond's goal is to give the other 815ers near death experiences, in an effort to show them the same aspects of the main timeline that he gained access to when Charlie gave him one. Thus the manifest is indeed to locate the other passengers. It just seems to fit with the way he said "show them" which was eerily similar to the way charlie gave him a choice in the car before driving them both into the ocean. Also, I wonder if anyone else felt that Desmond's final line was, well, just plain creepy. The look in his eyes, half open mouth even after he's finished his sentence, and plus the fact that he's strangely lit from below which just screams weirdness, at least to this viewer.--Rappaccini 18:29, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• You can easily determine he says "them" by turning on the subtitles/SAP for the episode. No clue why eveyrone is making this debatable

Tale of Two Cities

Two episodes have no scenes on the main Island--whoever added the third as A Tale of Two Cities forgot about the book club scene. I fixed it. --Frakkin Toaster 06:46, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Penny Milton?

Someone put in the Cultural References section that Penny's last name in the FST is Milton. I'm pretty sure it was Widmore. Am I wrong on this? Gefred7112 07:39, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Yes.  Robert K S   tell me  07:48, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

So how does that work? They fixed the inconsistencies with Daniel's last name, and they just couldn't bear for everything to make that much sense? If Penny's not married (which I assume she's not), how does she change from a Widmore to a Milton? Gefred7112 08:16, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Didn't Daniel say that Penny was his half-sister? ∇φ 08:23, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

We don't know who Penny's mother is in the first place, it could be her mother's maiden name. --Phryrosebdeco23 08:44, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Penny's "new" surname, Milton, is a sure reference to Paradise Lost. It is yet to be determined where is said paradise - if the island or not - and whether it was or wasn't lost - which timeline wil eventually "win". By the way this should be big, as the authors are very fond of heavy references and John Milton would be a major one. Kinda weird it's been missing so far.Fredgie 09:55, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• She could be doing the same thing (in this FST) as Susan Sarandon or Jeri Ryan, keeping the surname of their first husband, even though they have been divorced for years. --AlexDeLarge 12:14, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Given that Penny has a mother who is not Eloise, it seems logical that she perhaps was raised by her mother, as opposed to Widmore in the original timeline, hence why she would have her mother's name. And since Widmore's family circumstances are different in the FST (married to Eloise), a different childhood situation for Penny seems logical. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jeffcutt72 (talk • contribs) 2010-04-07T10:14:39.
• Are we certain that Milton is, in fact, Penny's surname? When we first heard the name read off the guest list, I thought it was referring to a different woman named Penny, and that Desmond was just reacting to hearing the name. Of course, in retrospect it does seem that it is probably Penny on the guest list, but has there been any official confirmation anywhere? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Undomiel27 (talk • contribs) 2010-04-07T15:18:30.
  • Desmond mentions that he heard the name Penny from the guest list and Daniel immediately understands who he's talking about. I think we're definitely supposed to infer that Penny Milton (aka Penny Widmore in the original timeline) is THAT Penny. If not, Daniel probably would have said, "Well, I don't who that Penny is... but coincidentally, I have a half-sister named Penny." DesmondHumeWillBeMyConstant 23:27, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Simmons?

Can anyone confirm for me that it is Simmons that gets cooked in the solenoid chamber, or if not whether that technician has a name, I couldn't catch it and took the name Simmons from the cast list.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   08:32, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• Confirmed, it's 'Simmons'. I went ahead and deleted all of the question marks in the main entry as well, if that's alright. AlaskaDave 08:38, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Terrific, thanx.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   08:40, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
  • np brother AlaskaDave 08:50, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

That guy?

When Desmond and Charlie are driving to the event, the screen pans over to see this guy walking. I paused my dvr but I couldn't tell who he is. It also showed him on the Untangled. Anyone know who that guy is? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Phryrosebdeco23 (talk • contribs) 2010-04-07T03:42:58.

• If you're on now, can you give me a rough time estimate of where the scene is? I have it here HD. AlaskaDave 08:45, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
  • 25 minute mark :) --Phryrosebdeco23 08:47, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
    • Yup, I just got it, though its the 19:10 mark for me. It's the guy walking with the backpack and white shoes, before Desmond and Charlie crash. Hmm, no idea who he is. I bet he jogs though. AlaskaDave 08:48, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• 19:10 it's a really bad edit. Possibly to show the Marina b4 they "fall" in. It's Mr Nobody. He's probably asking for his Cheque (check) as we speak. There's nothing at 25 - they're in the hospital.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   08:52, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Sorry I have low tec dvr lol. I figured he may have been somebody because they even showed him on the Untangled, which I found weird.--Phryrosebdeco23 08:54, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
  • Could've just been a random edit on the Untangled bit, maybe? AlaskaDave 08:58, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• I thought it was a bit odd how it lingered on him. Maybe we'll find out who it is in another fs. Hawkdeath 09:53, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • I also thought it was a bit strange how the camera swerved towards him as the car turned and stayed on him just long enough for emphasis. He's also shown again in a few shots later, this time from the other angle once the car is in the harbor(and strangely doesn't seem to react to the car being in the harbor). That said, my immediate thought was that this was a "Hitchcock" moment by someone on the production. Anybody who can recognize the crew able to verify this? Map66 14:04, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• They were just showing marina... Krzycho 17:50, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla

The event planners don't say "Tesla, Nicholas" they say "Pepper, Nicholas". I think this cultural refrence should be removed, what you guys think? Am I hearing wrong? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Impheatus (talk • contribs) 2010-04-07T08:13:34.

I definitely heard Tesla, Nicholas. I even backed up and checked while I was watching. I'll go back and check again now. --—   lion of dharma    talk    email   13:47, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Well apparently my hearing was not working last night... That 's really too bad, it would have been such a cool Easter Egg. --—   lion of dharma    talk    email   13:56, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Could somebody with closed captioning (mine is broken) put the complete list of people mentioned at the party in the trivia section? Seems like a fairly important and obvious thing to do. I believe one of the names mentioned is the name of one of the crew as well...--Jackdavinci 05:29, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Angstrom

I removed the following entry in Cultural references because there was no direct reference to either Anders Jonas Ångström or even the Angstrom Unit. Interesting tho it may be the episode page is not an encyclopedia of every indirect issue that it may raise.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   09:58, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• Anders Jonas Ångström: (1814-1874) This Swedish physicist was a pioneer of spectroscopy and created a chart of the spectrum of solar radiation that expresses the wavelength of electromagnetic radiation in the electromagnetic spectrum in multiples of one ten-millionth of a millimetre. This unit of length subsequently became known as the Ångström unit. (Science)

• It's an more obvious reference than that character in some books --LOST-Hunter61 10:21, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• well it was replaced with the comment "of course it is". I may have missed it, but I'm hardly convinced. Could someone tell me where the Angstrom unit was discussed in the episode. I really don't think that a mere reference to a "volt" or the "sun" or "jogging" should give rise to a cultural reference. Convince me!    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   10:24, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• I repeat LOST-Hunter61 - I didn't see/hear any reference at all! and which "character in some books"?    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   10:26, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• It was the name of the rabbit.--Ranch composite 11:20, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Exactly - and there is a cultural reference for the NAME of the rabbit. It's not about Mr Angstrom, or the unit of measurement.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   11:57, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• The scientists in the story probably named it for the physicist. The authors of the story probably named it for the literary reference. Both are valid reasons to list both in the recap, aren't they? --Jbillones 13:45, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

There is absolutely no way that the naming of the rabbit was not intentional as a tip of the hat to Angstrom the physicist. Electromagnetics is at the core of time travel! I'm not the one who originally wrote the reference in this article, but I am very much in agreement that this is a direct reference. As to the author Angstrom, that's quite a stretch, and I don't think it should be included. --—   lion of dharma    talk    email   14:06, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• No, because that makes it indirect.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   14:01, April 7, 2010 (UTC)\

It was intentional, and thus a reference worth mentioning. Does that not mean anything? The whole reasoning behind the cross reference systemon the site is to refer to the Science Portal on Lostpedia. How does it not make sense for a casual reader of the site to not be given notice that there is an entire article devoted to the thematic relevance of science to the series, and to realize that the name of the rabbit in this very episode fits into the scientific theme of the show? --—   lion of dharma    talk    email   14:17, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• It's cool guys. I am not going to be the one to remove either of them. I did shorten the Angstrom one by a few words but I said my piece and accept that I'm overruled.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   14:29, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• I initiated the Jonas Angstrom reference. I knew the name because of the angstrom unit, thats why I included that reference (its a measurement like an inch or millimeter, used on the atomical scale and in spectroscopy). I didn't know his early studies were in terrestial magnetism until I wikipedia'd him, but I definitely think its a neat connection worth noting. I also believe it could be argued the Rabbit in novels was named after Jonas Angstrom. --Cgarduno 14:44, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Unanswered Questions

• How does the "time-travel" machine work?

Can I remove this from the Unanswered Question section? It seems to make a lot of assumptions... like that there is a time travel machine! All I saw was a giant electromagnet, and Widmore saying that he wanted to test Desmond to see if he could survive an electromagnetic field that big. Nobody said anything about a "time travel machine" anywhere in the episode that I saw... --Maelwys 10:52, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• Please remove    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   10:57, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Where did Desmond receive the large scar on his forehead?
  • He got it during the car accident. Phobia27 14:40, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Are Eloise and now Desmond somehow aware of the alternative time line?
  • Yes of course, that was pretty much the entire point of the episode. Phobia27 14:40, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• I removed the question "Why is Desmond the "only man to survive the catastrophic electromagnetic event" when Locke and Eko were in same place at that time and they too survived?" for obvious reasons: Widmore said "that man is the only person I'm aware of in the world who has survived a catastrophic electromagnetic event". With Locke and Eko (and Charlie) dead, Desmond is the only one left. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Francisonfire (talk • contribs) 2010-04-07T17:30:47.
  • I won't add the question back right now because that type of question is better suited to Desmond's page I think (Actually, it probably already is asked there in some form), but just for the record: Locke and Eko were NOT at the center of the discharge. Only Desmond was, and that's probably what Charles meant when he said "catastrophic EM event" Remember, Desmond was unstuck in time by his experience in the discharge; nobody else experienced side effects related to the electromagnetism except for Desmond.MattC867 15:06, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Regarding "Penny's mother"

• Um.. a question "Who is Penny's mother?" definitely not raised by this episode, has been a UQ of the series for several seasons now. If someone is trying to imply Penny might have a different mother in this timeline - that's pretty much definitely wrong. --Integrated (User / Talk) 20:25, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
  • I'm going to ask that people stop adding this question. The question of Penny's mother is in no way related to this episode, it is a question about Penny relating to several seasons ago. Please either post a counter argument here or stop adding it. --Integrated (User / Talk) 10:20, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• Why is Penny's last name Milton?
  • Because she is a half sister of Daniel as he said. She obviously took her mother's name. Its a leading question for the above.--Lucky Day 03:21, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Hay guys. I added a bit to the Unanswered questions section earlier tonight asking whether the flash sideways Widmore and Eloise had actually ever been to the island, but noticed it's been removed. Just wondering if anyone has any ideas why? I'm fairly new to this and wondering if I missed something? Seems like a fair question though..--professorrev 22:59, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• I didn't remove it but I presume it's because we know Widmore and Eloise were on the island in both timelines, presuming the detonation of the bomb caused the timeline to split. When the bomb was detonated, Eloise and Widmore were both on the island. Phobia27 23:23, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Yes. I think this is making a fairly big assumption that Eloise and Charles may have never been to the island. That seems too implausible --Integrated (User / Talk) 00:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I don't understand the above argument. Within the FS it's been established that DHARMA was on the Island (including Ben and Rodger). But has it been established that any of the Other/Hostiles were there? It's been argued plausibly that the FS does not include Jacob's influence, in which case Richard, Charles, Ellie, etc. would never have been led there.EdwardLost 21:49, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• What will Desmond show to the Passengers of Oceanic Flight 815?
  • Basically a 'what happens next' question, but I thought it was pretty obvious; the visions that Charlie showed Desmond. Phobia27 23:23, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
    • My two cents is that this one is valid. It's not about something that is going to happen, it's about something that was mentioned, and obviously Desmond has a specific idea about what he's going to do. We're asking "what is desmond thinking" rather than "what will desmond do?". I won't re-add it unless others agree. --Integrated (User / Talk) 00:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• Do Charlie knows something about the Flash-sidways?
  • He has told us everything he knows, that there's another universe out there and you can get glimpses of it under certain circumstances. Phobia27 23:23, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• Why did Desmond wake up knowing what to do on the Island? - Don't know what this means. He was very unclear what to do when he awoke --Integrated (User / Talk) 00:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • The real question is: "What did Desmond experience during his black-out?" That seems like such an obvious question I assume some version of that question has been there and been removed. Would anyone object to that question being there?EdwardLost 21:58, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • I did put the above in the UQ's and it was removed. I'm not going to put it back, but I'm really curious: Why is it not valid? Did I miss something fundamental in the episode? Do we know what OT Desmond saw in his blackout? Is it irrelevant?EdwardLost 16:55, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
  • @EdwardLost - because it is a leading question inasmuch as it assumes he experienced something during his "blackout". We don't know that he experienced anything.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   17:11, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Why didn't Sayid kill Zoe?

- Easy assumption, there was no need to - he's not a total psychopath who kills for no reason.

• • I agree to removal, however a total psychopath/sociopath might be exactly what he is now. A definition of sociopath and a partial one for psychopath is a person who has no emotional compunction about the crimes they commit. This is exactly what Sayid complained to "Locke" about just a few hours previously. He is however still a trained soldier and there was simply no purpose in killing Zoe and likely some purpose in not killing her - like fear.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   10:50, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
    • Sayid does have a good reason for killing Zoe: to prevent her from getting help and coming after he before he can get get off the island with his package. I believe his reason for letting her go is a valid unanswered question.EdwardLost 21:49, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
      • Have you watched the series? Sayid has a soft spot for women because he never could forgive himself for having tortured Nadia. The only time in the series he's killed a woman, was in self-defence and after much hesitation, and he regretted it very much. Maokun 03:19, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
        • Have you watched the last few episodes? Sayid sat passively while Kate (his friend and a woman) was almost stabbed. Sayid's soft spot is gone.EdwardLost 16:37, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
• I agree that this is not important enough to qualify as an UQ but I think its worth discussion. When I first saw this scene I thought it was ridiculous and cheap, something lazy writers do when they want to keep a character. But easier for the writers would simply not have her as part of the escort, so it seems to be intentional.
• Do people agree that he respects women too much? He hasn't so far killed Nadia, Rousseau or even (more recently) Kate or Claire. Though he might have actually tortured Nadia off camera. He must clearly have a plan - maybe sending a message to Widmore on behalf of Locke - maybe like Ben did with Hurley.--Lucky Day 02:44, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

UQ: Penny at the stadium

I added an UQ about why Penny was at the stadium. Remove it if you want, but I think it's a legitimate question. It's obviously the same stadium that Jack and Desmond met in. Was there a reason for this? Given that Charles Widmore now has his son, could it be that Penny is fighting for his respect- sailing around the world like Desmond was going to? It's a long shot, but still...--Chocky 15:53, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• Perhaps she has a regular exercise routine? The characters live in the LA area and exercising by "doing stadiums" is not all that unusual. Of course the losties all interact with each other in strange ways. Cabeckett 17:00, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • I gotta agree with that. Its a character/episode connection not a UQ. It belongs in a different section.--Lucky Day 03:02, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Maybe its near the same hospital Jack works in. Maybe she's a doctor there like Jack. I'm not privy to filming locations, but as Sonya Walger is now full-time playing a doctor on Flash Forward maybe the producers decided take advantage of this, and integrated it into their plot. -- Jodon1971 17:12, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • Maybe the FS is the universe of Flash Forward. There was a billboard for Oceanic in Flash Forward. Maybe FS Charlie is the identical twin brother of that physicist who got his finger cut off. Then Lost is not ending! It just experienced a Flash Spin-off!
• I was always under the impression that stadiums were closed and locked up after hours, not open to joggers. I would think that stadium is asking for a lawsuit if anything happens to a female jogger like Penny using the stands after hours.--Pittsburghmuggle 07:01, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
  • Many are, but I know that a lot of High Schools, Community colleges, and Universities keep some of their athletic facilities open after hours. My old HS used to keep the tennis courts and stadium open. It wasn't carte blanch. You were allowed to run around the track and up and down the bleachers. The "office" and the announcer's booth were locked, among other places. Cabeckett 13:58, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Is there any dispute this is the same stadium? Unless there's an objection this qualifies for an Episode Reference at least. I do like the notion of Penny doing the sailing race, but for now we can't say more than she has an exercise routine that Daniel is aware of. One problem - Charles was sponsoring the race in 2001 (Desmond was on the Island for 3 years) and the FST is 2004. Duncan905 19:52, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

A Boy for Claire

How did Desmond know Claire was having a boy?

• His holiness Sanders-sama finally removed this UQ I put up. I thought this scene was a great little spot the writers threw in.--Lucky Day 06:49, April 15, 2010 (UTC)

AQ's

Why is Charles Widmore holding Desmond? {partially answered}--Lucky Day 03:17, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Desmond can survive an electromagnetic discharge that would kill any normal person (and other reasons).

Why don't people in the FST remember the Island or each other? Why can't they remember the OT?

• They can when they have a near death experience. They seem to remember the one they romantically loved the most.--Lucky Day 03:46, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • I wouldn't take that out, because we have clues but we still don't have the big picture. --Phryrosebdeco23 05:21, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
    • What do you mean, "(you) wouldn't take that out?" Are you saying you don't see that as an AQ? If so I think I know what you are getting at - I'm just saying that's the part of the question (mystery) that has been answered.--Lucky Day 20:11, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Incorrect blooper

I saw someone claimed Desmond not wearing a ring in this episode is blooper/continuity error. Whoever wrote that surely missed the point with this episode, didn't they ? --Donvercetti 11:26, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• No because he was wearing such a ring on the flight when he sat with Jack.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   11:58, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
  • So wouldn't that make the blooper that Desmond was wearing a ring on the flight? Because he's obviously not suppose to be wearing one now? Would the blooper not go on LA X?--WhyDidntUKnow 12:59, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
    • It goes on both: LA X for having the ring and this episode for not having the ring. --Golden Monkey 13:01, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
      • It should only go on LA X, since Desmond is not actually married, as we saw last night. Not having the ring is correct, so it's not a blooper. Having the ring is not correct, so it is a blooper. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
      • Did they show that he's not married at all, or is it just that he's not married to Penny? Beelzebubbles101 08:29, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
        • It's a blooper because it's incorrect with LA X, which in turn is incorrect with Happily Ever After. Not having the ring is a blooper because Desmond had a ring in LA X; having the ring is a blooper because he does not have a ring when he gets off the plane. Both sides are bloopers. --Golden Monkey 16:33, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
          • That would mean that any time there is a blooper, we'd then have to post another blooper on every following episode for that original blooper not reoccurring.--BrouhaJoe 14:28, April 7 2010

A blooper is something that the producers did not intend on doing. We don't know yet if this is the case with the ring. I suspect it's not. I suppose we could add it now as a blooper and delete it later if turns out to be intentional. --—   lion of dharma    talk    email   15:36, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• I feel it is intentional. There was something up with plane Desmond. And it's not like Desmond's actor wouldn't have mentioned the inconsistency. He's wearing a ring in one scene, and then the limo driver clearly points out that he's not wearing a ring. There's a reason for it, and we'll find out eventually. -- Clayburn 17:42, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
  • I agree it was intentional. Desmond was at least still part of his flash forward at that time, or flashing somehow. Iamlost23 19:02, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
  • I think that's why they made such an issue all the way through the episode of pointing out that Desmond had nothing metallic during the flashsideways. They seemed to be drawing attention to it. There's more to this than meets the eye methinks --professorrev 22:54, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Charles & Eloise both mention to Desmond he has no family. One possibility for wearing the ring on the plane is that Desmond doesn't want uninvited attention from women when he travels. (admittedly, this is a ploy more often used by women) He reinforces to George he's not looking for companionship, although moments before he invited Claire to share his ride. Tough one, I agree a continuity error belongs on LA_X. Duncan905 18:34, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • Seeing as how claire was very pregnant i am going to say he was probably just trying to be nice to the pregnant girl, and not that he was looking for "companionship" from her. If he is single in the FST then the blooper was in LA X and that is where it shoud be noted. Jdray 23:55, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• The writters intended for Desmond to be single and not wearing a ring, if there is an error when looking at the FST as a whole, then the error is that Desmond was wearing a ring when he shouldn't have been. That means the only mistake they made was to put a ring on his finger in LA X, which means there is no blooper here.--WhyDidntUKnow 19:11, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• Please consider the possibility that the Desmond on the Plane in FST was the Desmond from OT.--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 00:24, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
• Are you asking us to consider Desmonds entire body is from the OT? Or are you asking us to consider that Desmonds consiouness was from the OT? Because if we say conciousness, then the FST body that Desmond inhabited was a guy who is single and doesn't have a ring which is still correct.--WhyDidntUKnow 11:51, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

• Because this is Desmond, we really have no way of knowing what is going on between timelines, or if it's his OT consciousness or actual body we're seeing during any one moment in the FST. There is absolutely no question in my mind that this was intentional. That is an *enormous* oversight, not a minor one, and as far as I know, they've never made an oversight that huge. If it were any other character, I might be persuaded to agree that it was a blooper, but not with Desmond. —   lion of dharma    talk    email   19:15, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Another Incorrect Blooper

• Removed the Charlie Story about the flight blooper. Charlie's story may be inaccurate but at worst he uses artistic licence to embellish his description of the flight. It was, after all, a romantic story. Alternatively he lied or got some of the details wrong. Not a blooper.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   01:04, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

*Charlie explains to Desmond that Kate and Edward Mars were sitting two rows in front of him before he went to the lavatory to swallow his heroin. However Charlie was sitting two rows behind Jack, just as he was in the original timeline and can be seen in wide angle shots and when Jack gets up to go to the restroom. It's not until after Charlie is arrested that he is moved to the same area of the plane as Kate and even then it was much further than two rows. ("LA X, Part 1")

• Erm, clearly it is a blooper. FACT - Charlie is sitting 2 rows behind Jack at the start of the episode on the opposite side of the plane. He got some of the details wrong or artistic lisence of whatever you want to call it is up to the reader to determine. We just write the facts. --Anfield Fox|talk|contributions 07:12, April 8, 2010 (UTC) --Anfield Fox|talk|contributions 07:12, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• A blooper is something that the producers did not intend on doing. We cn't know that this wasn't intended to deliberately show Charlies character and personality in full flight. It's not about it being an erro which I acknowledge - it is whether it is unintentional and there is no evidence that it is because it comes filtered by a character. He got the detail wrong, how many times do we get a detail wrong when we are relaying information? Also the summary is what you call a "Fact". The rest of the page is interpretative. Not everything is as it seems at first light!    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   07:20, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • Stop reverting my edit until more people weigh in on this. I added it, we can agree to disagree but it should stay so more people can voice an opinion. If it's not there then they won't. Let's leave it for everyone else to decide.--Anfield Fox|talk|contributions 08:27, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
    • I'm totally with you on this. It is for that exact reason that I don't like the way certain editors indiscriminately butcher other people's work prematurely. I know it is "Lostpedia policy" but that doesn't mean it has to be abused. Maybe the SysOps should update their policy to allow edits to have a limited lifespan before they get removed. -- Jodon1971 10:51, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • Also i don't see how they could have intended it. Listen to the dialogue of the scene. Charlie clearly says he was sitting behind Edward Mars who looked at him as if to know he was carring drugs, he got spooked by this and so went to swallow it. However before he went to swallow his drugs we SEE HIM sitting 2 rows behind Jack just as he was in the original timeline and it's not until he's arrested he is sitting anywhere near Edward. I hate bloopers just as much as you probably do but look at my edit history. I've added about 50 bloopers over the years, argued many that were not, removed a lot and called for a Lostpedia guidline on what should and shouldn't be a blooper. I'm not saying i'm never wrong, just that i put a lot of thought into it and consider how it couldn't be a blooper but on this occasion i don't see an "out" --Anfield Fox|talk|contributions 08:34, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• No attack on you intended, thus I don't need to check your history! I don't remember removing twice - I'm sorry, I must have removed not finding any discussion from you here. Maybe I missed it. Still think our Charlie is a bit out there - especially in these scenes and invention or embellishment is more than possible - or even drug paranoia. This is the guy who can score a girl by giving her a jar of (no)peanut butter! If there is an explanation which wouldn't be an outright mistake then it's not what I would call a blooper.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   09:06, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• It's not a blooper because it's not a production error. If, when they were staging the scene in "LA X" Dominic sat in the wrong chair, that would be a blooper. He sat in the correct chair, and there is an inconsistency between Charlie's story and what 'actually happened'. Not every inconsistency is a blooper. -- Jbillones 15:15, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • Another possibility - aren't "marshalls & prisoners" pre-boarded on flights? Charlie would've walked past Mars, making eye contact & then felt "pegged". He was telling a story (this portion being only a setup to the important part of the tale) & I'd allow room for 'artistic license' & his state of mind. Duncan905 18:41, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this isn't a blooper. Charlie's testimony is simply unreliable. Keep in mind that Charlie is a drug addict and was probably high as a kite when he was on the plane. —   lion of dharma    talk    email   19:18, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Episode Summary Format?

Doesn't the way this article is written (dividing the Flash-Sidways and On Island events into two seperate parts) kinda go against the point of the entire episode? I think it's clear (although I expect this will be ignored due to lack of absolute certainty) that Desmond's mind is doing it's conciousness shifting thing again, like on the freighter. He get's put in the electromagnet, he starts experiencing the FST. He faints when he touches Penny and shifts back to the island, but having had all those experiences agrees to help Widmore. Even if there is not enough evidence to support it in this episode, it is undeniable that this is the episode that's starting to bridge the gap between the two timelines, so I have a feeling this rigid way of telling the episode story may soon become ineffective. TheLAD 11:54, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• Semi-agree. At least the OT section should go first, and go up to the first time he is knocked out, then go to FST, and back to OT after he wakes up. I like the separation between timelines, and I don't think we are quite ready to abandon it, but you are definitely right about this being the beginning of the end of the two timelines. In this episode in particular, I think we would be better served in the summary if it followed the structure of the episode itself. --Frakkin Toaster 12:33, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• I note that the page has been reorganised. I quite like the new layout, and my original edit put the FST with Desmonds "show them something" at the end too (which is definitely where it should be). BUT I think it impolite at best to do that sort of change without discussing it. Pretty sure it was User:Gfrast - to that editor - please discuss changes like that before implementing them.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   14:38, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• I'm sorry. Yes, it was me who changed the structure. I'm new and not so familiar with all the rules (yet). It won't happen again - without discussing it beforehand. Gfrast 16:46, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Widmore's Source

Before he tests Desomond, Widmore mentions that a source told him Desmond survived a catastrophic electromagnetic blast. I added an inquiry about who this source was to the unanswered questions page but someone removed it (without stating why). I'm all for not posting leading questions, but there's nothing leading about asking about the identity of an unnamed character explicitly mentioned in the episode (would asking "who is the Economist?" be a leading question???) After all, who COULD have been Widmore's source? Given that all his mercs were killed, who even knew what happened to Desmond? One of the O6? Penny? Ben? Any of these as the source would be major plot developments. I think this should be added back to the unanswered questions. Anybody have a reason it shouldn't be?--Faraday100 12:31, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

I tend to think Eloise has been telling Widmore everything she knows, now that MIB is loose and threatening to get off the Island. We don't know how exactly, but we know she has some knowledge of the future, at least to a certain point. It's not a stretch to think that she briefed Widmore on anything he didn't already know before he went to the Island. --Frakkin Toaster 12:36, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• I think it's a valid question. Even if Eloise seems to be the logical assumption, we still don't know. Desmond was taken to the hospital, where Penny might have had to mention he was sort of nuked on the medical history forms. -- Clayburn 17:48, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Did he actually use the phrase "a source"? What's the actual line of dialogue? --Jackdavinci 05:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• Eloise knew in 1989 -- we've seen Eloise and Charles together in S5. It's pretty likely it was her. Spiral77 05:56, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Jackdavinci has a good point. I've watched the episode 3 times now and I can't find where Widmore says "that a source told him". Maybe someone can enlighten me?? -- AlexDeLarge 10:18, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• "...only person I'm aware of in the world..." - either he has a source or he shares a greater awareness of events with Eloise. But his words don't state a 'source'. Duncan905 19:19, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• He also says, "If what I heard about you is true..." I think that's where we're assuming a source. He's heard something. From whom? -- Clayburn 01:15, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

My bad. While discussing it with someone I became confused. The word "source" isn't used, but a source is clearly implied. Yes it could be Hawking (and probably is), but I still think this is an UQ for now as their relationship is so unclear (after all, she didn't tell him how to find the island even though she controlled the Lamppost). I think the way it reads now is fine... sorry about the confusion.--Faraday100 17:35, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Guy accidentally cooked in beginning of episode

So do we now know what happened to that guy in "Some Like It Hoth"? That dead guy was also described as a "package" by Horace and Radzinsky. I don't remember the exact details and should probably give SLIH another look, but the dead guy in the beginning of Happily Ever After looked like the dead guy in the other episode. Then again, dead people tend to look alike, and I think that the Dharma guy's problem was that an object shot through his head, not that he got cooked by EM energy...but he was working in the Orchid by a hotbed of EM energy. I'll give it another look.He who waits 14:21, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

His filling went through his skull. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dubaich10 (talk • contribs) 2010-04-07T11:34:23.

• Interesting cross-reference to "package" - I never noticed in SLiH, that qualifies as juxtaposition.
• Widmore stopping the stretcher, looking & saying 'now' they can take the body away - what was that about? A moment of dignity after redshirting? It sure elevated Desmond's panic. Duncan905 19:25, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Clouds

What was with the clouds that were shown for a couple of seconds, just after Desmond is getting frazzled by the electromagnetism, and just before he is looking at the Oceanic board at the beginning of the FST? Phobia27 14:23, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• I think it was just meant to be a nudge in the "flashsideways" direction. Last time we saw Desmond he was on the plane, in the clouds. Then right after that he is confirmed to have been on the plane - instead of having been time jumping or whatever other theories there were.NandR 14:40, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• • I would say that it's just to mimic "LA X, Parts 1 & 2".--Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 07:29, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• It's a pleasing visual transition at least, pretty unique. Any reason not to mention as a production note, or add a narrative line? Like LA_X, it transitions from a violent OT event to a character's FST experiences. Duncan905 16:50, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Eloise's Brooch

Screenshot:

SidewaysEloise's Brooch

--Ncmacasl 16:23, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• These look like 2 of the eyes of "Eck" from the Outer Limits Episode "Behold Eck!". He was a 2-dimensional being who could travel from one dimension to another. Maybe Eloise is a trans-dimensional traveller, and will "recruit" Desmond in the future, but who is "not ready yet". -- AlexDeLarge 21:03, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
• Does it look like to anyone, that brand that was on Juliette?--Phryrosebdeco23 00:34, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • It does sort of resemble it. But the brand they gave Juliet only had one long arm, not two. See here for Juliet's mark MattC867 14:56, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Song played on the piano

(Sorry if I do something wrong, this is my first time writing something here...) When Desmond goes to meet Eloise, Faraday plays Chopin's Fantasie-Impromptu on the piano. This piece is also heard on the episode 6.05 that Jack goes to see his son play the piano at a contest. Maybe some of the creators love it!--Vaggelis91 16:42, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• Good call, I'll add it to the Cultural references --LOST-Hunter61 16:50, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

It could be that Daniel is David's piano teacher. Wouldn't that be a kicker. --—   lion of dharma    talk    email   17:29, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• Episode 5.14, The Variable, Daniel plays the same song as a child. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mariantani (talk • contribs) 2010-04-12T22:19:09.

Desmond's MRI Scan

The MRI machine made sounds eerily similar to sounds associated with the Smoke Monster. Just saying. Hatchbanger 16:57, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• Perhaps because the smoke monster is a remnant or consists of electromagnetism. Such as with an MRI. hmm? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iamlost23 (talk • contribs) 2010-04-07T14:01:08.

• That could be why (in "Pilot") Rose finds the noises that the Monster makes very "familiar". She is a cancer patient, and would be a likely person on the Island to have undergone an MRI scan.--DanVader228 22:52, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• Oh yeah, that would be a nice tie-in to a very early plot point! Hatchbanger 00:19, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• No, that was an easter egg- a large part of the smoker monster 'noise' is a New York taxi cab receipt printing machine. Rose is from New York.--Chocky 15:49, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Someone posted a screencap on another board that shows the sign on the MRI room's door which reads (literally) "Magnetic Resonance Imagining". Not "Imaging" Hatchbanger 00:35, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• I've been punk'd or something. I just rewatched the entire episode and I saw no such sign. Bah. Hatchbanger 03:38, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

The "Imagining" sign is from "Born to Run". --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 07:30, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

I thought that Rose recognized the noise as she was at one point in the NYC area. It has been confirmed that the smoke monster noises uses a NYC Cab Receipt printer as part of its 'sound'. That is why she recognized it. --Arghh151 03:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I've heard that rumor. It seems rather metaphysical/breaking-the-fourth-wall; even for Lost. I'd like some actual confirmation, though.--DanVader228 11:56, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Guy carrying stretcher

Was the guy carrying the stretcher the same guy that removed Kate's handcuffs?--Hermalot 17:48, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Its not a "solenoid chamber..."

Whoever wrote that bit clearly doesn't know what a solenoid is... --SvenBoogie 18:26, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

But a solenoid is a loop of wire wrapped around a core that helps produce magnetic field. That's what the thing in the room Desmond was in sure looked like and using the electricity is what creates the electromagnetic field, right? I'll have to read the article again. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iamlost23 (talk • contribs) 2010-04-07T13:59:04.

A solenoid is along one axis. If you wrap that solenoid into a circle you have a toroidal coil which is a completely different thing altogether and is what actually appears in the episode. It's much more accurate to call it a toroid. I changed instances of 'solenoid' to 'toroid.' --User:Cataclysmcow

• Funny thing is that a toroidal coil is designed to have minimal surrounding magnetic field because the flux is concentrated in the core. But I'm not suggesting a blooper here. ;) Dave92127 20:10, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I'm the one who doesn't accurately know what a solenoid is. Frankly I thought I got pretty close. However I expected I would be corrected way quicker than I was! "Toroidial coil" sounds great - love it.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   01:24, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• You guys are neglecting the fact that in the show they called them solenoids. Simmonds was killed because he was asked to "go check on the solenoids". After being asked, he went straight into the chamber and began inspecting the coils. Its pretty clear that its the writers who got their terminology mixed up. Regardless, I think they should either be referred to exactly as they are referred to in the show, or the error should be mentioned in the bloopers section. MattC867 14:50, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • So, this needs to be added as a BLOOPER in the main page. Agreed? -- Jodon1971 17:02, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • The term 'solenoid' is only used once and there's no way of knowing what the character is referring to when he says, 'go check the solenoids.' He could be referring to another solenoid that isn't toroidal.--Cataclysmcow 02:34, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
• We need to agree on a name for these things, because we should create an article for that room. I would have done it already but I'm unsure what to call it. If we give Claire's hut an article, then this deserves one too.--Baker1000 20:15, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I feel that, until the show corrects it's mistake, we should call it "solenoid". Although it is technically incorrect, the show has stated it as such. It's kind of like the whole Daniel's last name matches neither his father or mother, but it is as it is. Until the show explains, it should remain "solenoid". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Atomic Mystro (talk • contribs) 2010-04-08T17:36:19.

We should use what was said on the show. If it is incorrect the bloopers may be the best place to note that. Jdray 23:51, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• Add it to Trivia? Spiral77 16:14, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

The design of the toroidal coils actually resembles the Mach Effect Thrusters being researched by Dr. James Woodward. According to theory, Mach Effects can be utilized to not just generate reactionless thrust in space, but also potentially generating warp fields for starships and stargates/wormholes for FTL travel. I am not, however, familliar with any use of the devices for time travel. However, I agree with the original poster, these are NOT solenoids, they are toroidal coils. There may have been, however, some smaller solenoids used in switches in the chamber. I would suggest this be treated as a blooper and any mention of "solenoids" elsewhere be in quotes with links to the blooper section.Mike Lorrey 04:04, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Picture did not move??

The picture did not move in Widmore's office, there are two different pictures if you look at the background colours they are different --Deeplakes 18:32, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Trivia(s)

First of all, excuse my english. I was reading the trivia (yeah, not plural) and realized I noticed some more, but don't want to be the one adding them because my english isn't that good and I prefer we debate over them :

• Aren't we gonna say something (except that Desmond travels between the timelines agains) about Charlie/Daniel/probably Penny experiencing the same ? This is no more only Desmond-related.
• I don't remember what ep, but the scene where Desmond is at the stadium definetly exactly looks like the one where Jack exercises, and Desmond is told to take the course around the world.
• Shouldn't we mention the MacCutcheon in the recurring theme/trivia ?

What do you think ? --FrenchFlo 20:28, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Good points. Proposing:

• "This is the first episode to feature flash-sideways non-centric characters, Charlie and Daniel, who are aware & curious about the original timeline."
• "In the flash-sideways timeline Penny jogs at the same stadium in Los Angeles where Desmond and Jack encounter each other in the original timeline. (Juxtaposition)"
• the McCutcheon whiskey is mentioned in trivia points about the juxtaposition of Charles & Desmond's relationship, and the Episode References. Duncan905 19:34, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Is it fair to say that the journal page Daniel shows Desmond in the Flash-Sideways Timeline is the same page he refers to on the Island in "The Constant"? Moreover he was also talking to Desmond then, albeit via satellite telephone. The journal screencap is actually on "The Constant" page, but a better one can be found here. Is this a legitimate reference? --MichaelFC 23:21, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

What timeline is the Widmore on the Sub from?

I hope I can explain my confusion well enough to get it cleared up. This season shows everyone having an alternate life in the flash sideways i.e. how things would have been in 2004. So the events that lead up to everyone getting back on the plane to go back to the island don't actually happen i.e Jack and Kate don't marry, and Ben doesn't go to the marina to shot Desmond. I can understand Desmond being the Constant, and having the ability to effect multiple timelines. But how does Widmore get the Desmond who was shot by Ben? Desmond can traverse timelines, but not Widmore. How was Widmore able to stay in 2007 when he wasn't on the island when the bomb went off? I'm missing something. --Flashpot 20:34, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• Widmore + the sub + desmond are from the main timeline which never ceased to exists. Desmond returned from the Island, Widmore had been banished years ago, and while Desmond was in the hospital beeing shot by Ben, Widmore simply took him to the Island in his Sub. And for the record, the flash sideways timeline isn't "how things would have been", it's more "how things are" in the new alternate reality created when Juliet detonated the Hydrogen bomb. I hope I'm clear, and not wrong. --FrenchFlo 20:48, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
  • Darlton said in the podcast that the original timeline and the FST are not "mutually exclusive," so it's definitely not "How things would have been." It simply exists and Desmond, of course, appears to be the link between the two because, as Darlton has said, the "rules don't apply to him." DesmondHumeWillBeMyConstant 16:30, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• This helps. Thanks. It helps that I read the Charles Widmore page, too. Which I should have done first. Grabbing Desmond at the hospitial was the piece I missed. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Flashpot (talk • contribs) 2010-04-07T15:57:45.
• Reading this reminded me of something. Desmond was shot by Ben on the same day as flight 316 to Guam. There is a debate last year that flight 316 travel from 2008 to 2007. Now consider the fact that Widmore took Desmond from the hospital after he was shot and it is 2007 now on the island, shouldn't it be flight 316 took off from 2007(only travel from night to day) or is it Widmore and the sub also travel from 2008 to 2007?--IceCrash 10:19, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Shannon

Look at the episode 26:47. Either it's a very close lookalike or everyone has completely missed it! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LOST-Figg (talk • contribs) 2010-04-07T16:39:37.

• Definetly not her. Doesn't look that much alike and Boone said she was still in Australia. I don't think she had time to come back and get a job as a nurse. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Francisonfire (talk • contribs) 2010-04-07T17:16:44.

Sign your comments, folks, please.--Pittsburghmuggle 21:21, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Main Image change

1	2	3
4	5	6
7	8	9

Another image war which one? 1 or 2. (and we can remove 1 from the article if choosen)

I choose #1 because it better represnts the episode which is desmonds realization of "flashes" of the original timeline while the other bears very little importance. -- B1G CZYGS  Talk  Contribs  21:48, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

#1, but also open to better pictures. #2 is a bit blurry on the right hand side because of out-of-focus Daniel, #1 is okay but I don't really like his 'dazing'. Phobia27 23:28, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

Any of these? (Kdc2 02:03, April 8, 2010 (UTC))

I like #5, but 2, 4, 5, and 8 are the only ones that would work imo. InflatableBombshelter 02:10, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

I like 4. Omggivemaafningusername 02:17, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

I prefer #2 This current one may not be very exciting but it is a good quality cap, showing Desmond at a moment where everything is about to change. Someone mentioned the blur at the LH side - it is both deliberate and serves to focus on the subject. I like the look of vague confusion. #1 in the back of the Limo at the end just will never cut it. Its my grab (actually a version of it) and the lighting is atrocious and unfixable. As important as the moment is Desmond's expressions are rather odd and while they work in motion in stills he just looks like an idiot. Lets keep the great clear original choice.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   02:18, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• Nice table and seeing it like that #2 is the standout    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   02:34, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• #2 is pretty awesome, but I think it should be the Dr. Manhattan picture, Desmond in the EM chamber.--Frakkin Toaster 02:50, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I'd vote for #2. Not only is it a great shot, it underlines the difference in the flash sideways, i.e. his relationship with Widemore. --Litany42 03:00, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• As the one who chose number #2, I obviously vote for number 2. I can't see what's wrong with it.  ODK  Talk  Sandbox  03:06, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I'm a fan of iconic moments if the face is right, so 4 or 5. 4 moreso because it's the moment of connection that causes #5's expression. The title's 'Happily Ever After' (like 'Something Nice Back Home') Duncan905 04:43, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I'm voting for 9.--Pittsburghmuggle 06:47, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I think #4 captures the episode's emotional arc best. —Josiah Rowe 06:49, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• #4 for me - Josiah got it perfectly. AlaskaDave 09:55, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I prefer #4, if that counts for anything Hawkdeath 10:01, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I also prefer #4. AlexIW 13:26, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• If 4 wins we must find a better screen cap - open 2 and 4 to full size and you will see the problem. 4 is terrible.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   14:08, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I'm casting my vote for #4 unless someone puts up a better pic of a smiling Des. And I opened it I'm not to sure what the problem with #4 is other then it's got a fuzzy background.--WhyDidntUKnow 17:11, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  1. 5 or #4. Desmond's expression on the current image is just awkward. But I agree, if we choose #4, we need to find a better quality screencap.--Baker1000 19:24, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I like #2. It's a great shot. Bobrk 20:27, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• #4 if I get a vote. The stadium is a good tie in of both timelines, and related to Desmond (and Penny and Jack). -- Clayburn 20:34, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• No. 4, No. 5, or No. 9 - --Somanysnowcherriesfallinginfrance 22:58, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I vote for #4 or #5. --Jonahwriter 23:02, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I vote for #4 --erikire 02:08, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
• I don't like 1, 6, 7, or 9... the rest are all pretty good.  Robert K S   tell me  03:12, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
• 3, 4, 5, or 7. (Kdc2 03:12, April 9, 2010 (UTC))
• I uploaded a better version of #4 (on the right), I think it's good enough to use it. AlexIW 19:20, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
  • Let's use it already. Looks like #4 is the winner. -- Clayburn 20:33, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
• I moved AlexIW's image into the table --—   lion of dharma    talk    email   20:17, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
  • Most people have voted for 4 or at least for 4 as one of the options and the revised image now put up is looking good, good main shot of Desmond's face and stadium ties in nicely with previous Desmond episodes. So .... has this dispute officially been laid to rest now? I hope so! --Jonahwriter 23:15, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
    • 4 seems to be the favorite. Looks much better now! (Kdc2 01:12, April 10, 2010 (UTC))
    • I'm glad you decided to use it, it indeed looks better now! AlexIW 07:25, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
    • and thanx to AlexIW for a much better cap.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   09:20, April 10, 2010 (UTC)
• I don't like any of these. I think the most appropriate is Dez in a business suit looking all corporate.--Lucky Day 02:46, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

MRI

Whoever put in the MRI bloopers and continuity text does not know what they are talking about. An MRI can take up to an hour, because several sets of images are needed, each taking anywhere from 2 to 15 minutes. So this is not a blooper. I am a nurse. Many patients have metal in certain parts of the body, say the lumbar spine, which would effect the person in a harmful manner sure, but only if that part of the body is in the machine. Certain metals can distort the images, but not necessarily harm the patient (with some exceptions, such as a pacemaker) if the patient has been examined first, as via xray for metal in the part of the body being scanned. Doing a brain scan with an MRI, the whole body does not need to be in the chamber. As far as other objects, yes they are kept out of the room, such as pens, jewelery, pins, etc are not to be in the room when the machine is in use. To be safe, they do require that they not be in the room at anytime, so as not to be forgotten to be removed when the machine is in use. Iamlost23 22:53, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

• Totally agree with you Ialost23, I get MRI's and they do last more than 2 minutes. I vote take it out!--Phryrosebdeco23 00:31, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• Tidy up this piece please. The talk of several body parts being scanned is hardly pertinent. No, he's not getting a plain X-ray, it's an MRI scanner! Moreover, only one set of images is taken for a non-contrast MRI brain. I think the point is that it certainly does not take 30 mins (as per the show) for a simple MRI brain. Your "nurse" here takes up to an hour to do one? Is that really something to be proud of?? Hmmm, that's probably because diagnostic radiographers and radiologists do the scans - never nurses. --MichaelFC 22:49, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
• Doesn't it say at the top of the page "Be polite, don't bite, have fun!"?

What about the Donnie Darko theory?

Is it just me or did this episode feel a lot like Donnie Darko (with Desmond as Donnie)? --Dr P.O. 22:01, April 7, 2010 (UTC)Dr P.O.

Just you apparently! Frank wasn't even in the episode!    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   10:52, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Happily Ever After reminds me The Man in the High Castle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_in_the_High_Castle

Philip K. Dick's version of alternate universes deals with the results of WWII. Similar flash-sideway technique is used. Correct universe rules in the end. With how the ending seems to be shaping up, I think the influence is there.

• • Correct universe does not "rule" in the end. Template:SpoilerThe characters come to realize that their universe is not correct (taken on their faith in the I,Ching) but believe the book within the book events are the true reality. One problem of course is the USSR is left out of the book within book events and the Cold War conflict is between the US and the UK.--Lucky Day 20:16, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Anyone else read the book? What do you think?

--Babyalligator42 00:56, April 8, 2010 (UTC) -Jared p.s. Love the site, frequent reader...first time poster

• You should make a blog about this Babyalligator. You'll be much more likely to start a conversation that way. :-) --—   lion of dharma    talk    email   01:14, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• I've read it and I don't see the connection other than the alternate timeline(s. The book actually has two), and maybe the weird surprise ending. Weird book as usual from PKD. It featured Americans wanting to assimilate themselves into Japanese culture and the Japanese having far too fascination with the American cowboy period. It was an allegory for the Cold War.--Lucky Day 02:49, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Dez sees both Timelines?

I've removed the following line from the trvia section. "this episode features consciousness travel between the two realities" It is pure speculation to say that. We as of now have no idea what happened to Desmond during the few seconds he was unconscious, but there is no evidence that he mind traveled to the other reality. --D Toccs 00:59, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• I don't know. It's been made pretty clear that Desmond's time travel is not physical, but just his consciousness. We've seen it twice, in "Flashes Before Your Eyes" and "The Constant." I am very sure that they intended us to think that OT Desmond inhabited FST Desmond's body for those twenty minutes. Why else would he wake up a changed man, who now understands what Widmore is asking of him? To put it another way, if his consciousness did NOT travel to the FST, they still need to explain to us what happened to Desmond when he got knocked out. --Frakkin Toaster 01:29, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• Agreed. It's pretty clear that's exactly what is happening -- right down to Desmond touching Penny and then passing out (like "Flashes..."). This is also the first clear indication that events in one timeline are affecting the other. --Litany42 02:49, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• Also right when he wakes up on the island, he's looking at the same hand he had just used to touch Penny, a clear indication that he traveled from sideways consciousness to island consciousness in that moment. --Fearandtrembling 02:53, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• It's not speculation. It's paying attention. I detailed this at some length below, but shortly, we know it was consciousness travel because there was a huge mass of alt. storyline with only original timeline story at beginning and end, similar to the structure of Flashes. Also, Desmond fainting, just like in Constant. Not to mention his abrupt change in personality after waking up in Widmore's chamber. The only question is whether it was sideways Desmond traveling into original Desmond's body, or vice versa. Arguments can be made for both scenarios, and possibly it was one or the other at different times. If I remember correctly, there was some grey area on this specific issue in Constant, too. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions
• I didn't see any actual travel going on. What did happen was that both Desmonds were able to view things from the other universe (ALT Des just got a flash of his life with Penny whereas our Des probably got to view everything from staring at the arrivals board to the handshake), but at no time was either Desmond in control of another's body, as he was during his previous time travel experiences. --Jackdavinci 05:40, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe Desmond didn't get control of his alternate body, but he was definitely in that body, as his staring at his hand indicates. Why would he stare at his hand unless he had some kind of memory of feeling Penny's hand in his own? Memory of touch implies that he was able to feel that touch, meaning he was in that body, even if his consciousness wasn't actively in control. Also, if there was no travel, explain his sudden change of heart. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions

• Desmond did travel between realities. Notice that when he does so, no strange "whoosh" is heard (the one that sounds when we shift realities), which mimics "Flashes before your eyes" and "The constant". In both episodes no "whoosh" was heard to show us that they weren't flashbacks, they were travels. In the same way, as no strange-whoosh is heard, Desmond travels between the realities. When the travels are over, and he meets up with Sayid, then we get the strange-whoosh to the other reality, because he is not traveling anymore, and we're only going to see whatever happened to the FST Desmond. But until that, yeah, he switched realities. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 07:23, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• Yep, first time that we're aware of that one timeline has influenced the other. Charlie seemed to imply it happened to him in a near-death experience. Woman he referred to was Claire... maybe? Daniel mentioned it as well what with his sleep-writing physicist side coming out and his mention of having set off the nuke. In the original timeline something wonky happened when Widmore activated his let's-BBQ-Desmond experiment, but doesn't seem like we have enough facts to draw any meaningful conclusions. Certainly Desmond became a lot more compliant afterwards... tho' arguably he just got his brain fried and now agrees with whatever people tell him. That'd be a good explanation of why he wandered off with Sayid. Spiral77 01:26, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

• No doubt the producers want us to think that he saw the FST. But it doesn;t make sense, FST Desmond only experienced flashes of Penny, he didn't actually remember her he referred to her as an idea. I am willing to bet all the money I have that what Desmond saw was something else and not the other timeline. --D Toccs 02:10, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

• He saw flashes of the other reality, but at the same time, the OT Desmond was aware of everything he saw in the FST. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 16:03, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

• • Alt-Desmond certainly had flashes of the OT, tho' I think it's a slight stretch to draw any meaningful conclusions about what happened to OT Desmond as this was not revealed by the episode. Certainly something happened, but why would seeing the alt-timeline cause Desmond to suddenly start being compliant to Widmore's plans - a man he tried to brain with an IV drip not an hour earlier? Or why he would go along with Sayid? I suspect Desmond did see something to do with the alt-timeline, tho' I must acknowledge that the argument that his brain got fried in the process is actually the stronger one currently based on the available evidence. Spiral77 22:26, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

• My theory? (No spoilers!) Desmond is having flashes of the future again. That's why he knows what to do.--Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 13:59, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

• Has this been restored? Because its pretty clear to everyone else that Dez sees both timelines, albeit "too early".--Lucky Day 02:51, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Re-deleted, final ep makes this unlikely. OfficiousG 02:03, May 26, 2010 (UTC)

Desmond's Purpose

What is it on the island timeline? He says he knows what he needs to do but what does he need to do on the island? --Bellac230 02:48, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• It is conventional to add items at the end, so I moved it here. Also the author did not sign. 4 tildes~ please - or press the button!    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   01:43, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

3x08 Episode reference

There has been some debate as to whether or not "* Eloise Widmore speaks of a violation. ("Flashes Before Your Eyes")" is an episode reference. This is not an episode reference because A. It does not directly refer to a past episode. B. Recurring quotes belong in recurring themes, not episode references, but that is irrelevant anyway because C. Eloise doesn't even mention a violation in 3x08. Despite this a user has continually been adding this to the section, without stating why. I would like to get some more input on this since i'm tired of undoing his edits. InflatableBombshelter 02:44, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• actually there is no debate at all as the editor refuses to discuss the issue. I have left an additional message on his talk page and have also removed this incorrect reference. Eloise DOES NOT refer to a violation in 3x08    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   02:48, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• I think the similarities between the scenes were as obvious and intentional as the ones in Widmore's office, though the phrase 'violation' wasn't used before. I reworded it to exclude that word. --Jackdavinci 05:48, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • There has been discussion on "allusions" that are not direct references to previous episodes. Scenes or statements that are nearly identical in appearance to previous ones get the chopping block because they are not 100% identical. Last episode I pointed out that Widmore fearing a future outcome was eerily alike the scene where Eloise breaks the natural sequence of events to tell Desmond not to marry Penny when he first flashed back in time. This got the ax too.--Lucky Day 02:56, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
  • "Direct" is "direct" not identical. But as soon as we let in allusions just about anything could get in, and in a show like this we would be engulfed. Lucky Day your allusion might have been interesting - even pointed to something - either make it a theory or simply put it here. Frankly though I don't think your idea would even qualify as an allusion, so could you imagine the edit war that would ensue if we were to have "allusions"?    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   06:27, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
• I do think though that the relation of 'violation' to the 'rules' should be mentioned. It doesn't seem that 'rules' is listed as a recurring theme though. Does it belong in some other category? --Jackdavinci 05:50, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Causes of the Jumps

Given that this episode did not feature the narrative device of the flash-sideway, but was instead consciousness travel a la The Constant and Flashes Before Your Eyes, I find it strange that no one has mentioned what caused the consciousness jumps in the episode. Of course, we know that the first jump was caused by Widmore's experiment. But there are two other jumps:

• (2) the jump from the sideways world back into the original world. We know this was a consciousness jump and not simply a flash-sideways, for two reasons: (a) before the experiment, Desmond is thrashing around trying to resist Widmore, while afterwards he is compliant. It is his experiences in the sideways world that causes him to change his mind ("A lot can happen in 20 minutes"). And, (b) in the sideways world, Desmond faints after meeting Penny, similar to how he lost consciousness in 1996 when he traveled back to 2004.
• (3) the jump from the original world back into the sideways world. We know this was a consciousness jump and not simply a flash-sideways, because Desmond comes to after fainting. If it wasn't a consciousness jump, he wouldn't have fainted in the first place. This is simply the flip side of the previous flash, if you will.

So it seems that a couple of theories can be drawn up based on what happened, as to what caused those second and third jumps. The way I see it, the second jump occurred because he met Penny, almost as if he was being rewarded by discovering a link to his other life. Similarly, when he decided to follow Sayid (who is working for the MiB), this is what causes the third jump, as if he was being punished for not helping Widmore as he had promised. What do you guys think? Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions

Well I'd call them more of a bridge than an actual jump because at no time does either Des inhabit the other's body to the point of taking control. Our Des gets to see a little slice of Alt Des's life, and Alt Des gets two visions of our Des's life. The bridges and their causes being: 1) Coils cause Des to start viewing Alt-Des's life 2) Alt-Des drowning receives a vision of Charlie's "Not Penny's Boat" 3) MRI causes Alt-Des to receive a vision of Des's most powerful memories of Penny 4) Alt-Des touches Alt-Penny who is his Constant, causing Alt-Des to faint briefly as Des stops viewing his life. Following Sayid happens a long long time after Desmond has woken up and has nothing at all to do with consciousness bridging. Des waking up and Alt-Des fainting happen simultaneously. --Jackdavinci 06:01, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe Desmond didn't get control of his alternate body, but he was definitely in that body, as his staring at his hand indicates. Why would he stare at his hand unless he had some kind of memory of feeling Penny's hand in his own? Memory of touch implies that he was able to feel that touch, meaning he was in that body, even if his consciousness wasn't actively in control. Also, if there was no travel, explain his sudden change of heart. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions

• I think it's an excellent point. Penny is Desmond's constant just like in (what was the episode name? oh yeah) "The Constant." In that episode his flashes stopped when he talked to Penny on the phone. And in this episode the flash stopped when he shook her hand.--Slimeham 06:05, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• The more I think about it though, I disagree with the second part of what you said, Aobozu, about his encounter with Sayid causing another flash. Here's how I see it: The coils caused Desmond to have a flash just like when he blew the swan (hehe) hatch. His encounter with Penny, his constant, then caused his consciousness to shift back to the OT. The flash after he goes with Sayid is our traditional flashsideways. Notice that the whoosh was included when those scenes changed.--Slimeham 06:13, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • Exactly, slimeham, and the episode did a perfect job of presenting that. The final scene was a regular flash-sideways, of course now Alt-Desmond has all of the memories he previously had. Marc604 08:59, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • Slimeham has it how I interpreted it Hawkdeath 10:05, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • You're right. I watched it again today, and I did hear the sound I missed the first time. So the second flash is actually a flash-sideways, while the main body of the episode is consciousness-travel. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions

In the alternate timeline..

I think it's worth outlining something. In the alternate timeline we are assuming that everything happened the same up to the detonation of Jughead. This includes, then, Eloise executing her own son. So I guess that Jughead sinking the island somehow, she saw he would never return there, so allowed him to practice music instead? The whole Ellie and Charles living happily ever after off the island seems weird, coupled with Eloise surely still thinking he must go back in time and be killed by her at some point? --Integrated (User / Talk) 12:34, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• As the old Lone Ranger joke goes, "What mean 'we', paleface?" -- Jbillones 15:23, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• No, it is not weird, because this Daniel was never shot by Eloise. The bomb's detonation was intended to cause the Swan to not exist. The Swan brought down 815. If 815 never crashed, the survivors of it-and the science team-would not have time traveled to 1974, where Daniel was shot. The events prior to the Incident that were caused by the 815er's time travel would also not occur due to the Swan causing them to begin with-and that includes Daniel's shooting. --Golden Monkey 16:10, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
• We also know that for the Island, time is different than elsewhere. The freighter's doctor washed up on shore while he was still alive on the boat. So we have future events happening before past events, if you will, or present events happening before past events. With this in mind, it's entirely possible that effects of the bomb's detonation radiated backward as well as forward in time. Michael Lucero * Talk * Contributions

• Maybe it's a little weird. I don't believe that, if it was the bomb that created the other timeline, the FST would have a different past. Even though the Losties wouldn't travel back in time to cause the events that we saw in 1977, it wouldn't matter. They were already there in 1977, and if the bomb caused the split, then that past would be shared between the two. If, however, this is some kind of alternate "No Jacob" reality or something else, that's always existed alongside the OT, then it can have it's own pre-1977 timeline as well. So, I feel that in the FST, Eloise did kill Daniel. But if she knows about the dual timelines, as she seems she might, then she may know that there's no reason to kill him in this one. -- Clayburn 20:50, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• I think what's interesting here is that, as far as I can tell, Eloise shot Daniel in the 70s in both timelines, so she probably attains (or at least sees) his journal in both timelines, and the Losties tell her about time travel and about their nuke plan in both timelines. At some point, there is a split. In one timeline, the nuclear bomb plan is apparently successful, so Eloise believes that the timeline has changed, and she probably starts to see evidence of that, comparing Daniel's journal to the reality around her. In the other timeline, the nuclear bomb plan is somehow unsuccessful (my thinking here is that Richard's "I saw them all die" is important here), so she begins to see events occurring exactly as described in Daniel's journal, and comes to believe that time can never be changed. This is why she forces Daniel to be a physicist in the OT, but allows him to be a musician in the FST, etc. Desmond's name is mentioned prominently as Daniel's constant in the journal, so she probably keeps an eye on him in both timelines, and makes sense of her interactions with him in Flashes Before Your Eyes and this episode.LuigiHann 21:03, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• I see it as Eloise shot Daniel in 1977, WHH and Dead is Dead. Then the bomb went off. A big rock in the stream so the river can't course correct. This paradox causes the timeline split. The OT is where the bomb didn't work. The flash sideways is where the bomb worked and the island sunk. It must have sunk slowly allowing Widmore, Ben, Ben's dad, Eloise, and Miles dad,ect to leave. Now Eloise and Widmore stay together and have a baby Daniel. There's no island so Eloise lets Daniel become what he wants, a musician.Annarboral 02:29, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Constant

Could Desmond be the constant between the two timelines? I can't remember, but is someone who jumps between the rifts in time aware of each timeline? Could that be the reason why he needs the manifest because he needs to get the passengers in the flashsideways together?--Scribble72 14:54, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

I assume he only wants to show them their alternate life. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 18:54, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Actually it appears to me that Eloise Hawking is the constant. Note in the FST, when she berates Desmond for asking about the guest list, she knows very well what he wants. Eloise Hawking in the FST has read Daniel Faraday's journal, you may recall, which likely mentions Desmond and Penny in the future. She knows that the FST was created by the bomb, and has evidently done a lot of research since then. She knows whats going on.Mike Lorrey 04:13, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

• • We know that Desmond is Faraday's constant, which might explain why the latter seems so "together" when he meets the former (compare his interaction with Desmond to his unexplained sobbing when he saw Oceanic 815 at the bottom of the Ocean in Confirmed Dead). Penny is Desmond's constant. The closer he gets to her, the more he remembers from the other timelines (he even actually jumps from one timeline to another when he touches her). Could we infer that Claire is Charlie's constant? She's apparently the one responsible for Charlie's revelation about another possible life. Also, Maybe Desmond's self-imposed mission (finding the flight manifest and showing "them" "something") is all about helping the other Oceanic passengers to find their own constants. On a related subject, does a constant have to be a person? Could Widmore's constant, for example, be a bottle of McCutcheon's scotch? It seems to follow him wherever he goes and a bottle was found on the island. --SoNickPick 15:53, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Flashes Before Your Eyes

The mind travel technique in this episode was used before, in "Flashes Before Your Eyes", only that in that episode Desmond didn't travel to another reality, but to his past (apparently). Does this mean:

1) In "Flashes Before Your Eyes" Desmond did travel to another reality (but still set 8 years before), or

2) In "Flashes Before Your Eyes" Desmond traveled to his past, but created a slightly-different reality (being hit by Jimmy Lennon, for example, instead of seeing that Jimmy hit the bar-tender), or

3) In "Flashes Before Your Eyes", Desmond traveled to his past, but his past was always like that, he always made those EXACT choices and was always hit by Jimmy Lennon

One of these three options must be the correct one. After watching "Happily...", I think we may be able to get to a conclusion. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 18:53, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• Interesting to speculate, but keep in mind that all applies to the Original Timeline, where we know Desmond continued until kidnapped by Widmore in 2007. The FST shares the common element of Eloise being aware of an expected course of events & warning Desmond against deviating. The other shared theme is that Desmond awakens with memories of additional experiences intact. The 'rules' don't apply to him somehow, so in the case of Desmond accidentally getting hit by Jimmy instead of the bartender, that is what happened-happened. :) Duncan905 19:11, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• Then why would he remember differently? I understand your point but what Desmond said in that episode is different. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 23:59, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• • Seems to me Desmond starts with the true memory of Jimmy hitting the bartender (and his memories of Charlie, and future memories of the Island/being apart from Penny), but because they're pre-cognitive/deja-vu-like (and because he's outside the rules) Desmond can tweak his destiny with a different choice here & there. He tries to steer onto a life with Penny but backs down. Eloise had intervened & showed him some scary destiny stuff, which works, but she only shows up to do this because Des *can* change his destiny (and therefore many other things). She scared him off of proposing to Penny, but he did have the 'freedom' to give her the ring. So when he's at the bar later he absent-mindedly forgot to just watch the bartender get hit. So Des changed the OT (slightly) and it happened-happened. So I guess I'm agreeing with #2 above. Duncan905 15:40, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

• Yes, apparently #2 is the correct one, but apparently we'll never get a straight answer.--Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 16:06, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

The Wooden Crate

As Zoe was walking Jin to the generator room, they passed by the wooden crate with the electromagnetic coils. That whole sequence had me thinking Jurassic Park. "You bred raptors?" was all I was thinking. I still think it would be a better plan against the Black Smoke than microwaving Desmond. -- Clayburn 21:14, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• "Microwaving Desmond" -- hilarious!!  :-) Spiral77 21:33, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • Does he beep when he's done? Does it sound like the swan station when you have to press the button?--Pittsburghmuggle 06:59, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
• I agree with you Clayburn - I was thinking JP when I first saw that scene. Here's a question on the solenoid crate. The article says that its an old DHARMA experiment. I don't think we know that. We know the generator they are using is old - but I was under the impression that Widmore somehow brought the crate with him, which begs the question - how? --LOSTinDC 23:14, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
  • The crate was definitely Widmore's. It was wooden and looked brand new. The generator room, however, was Dharma. It looked like they had Hydra symbols throughout it. The generator was likely from Dharma days, and that tech guy says it hasn't run in years. The crate was the only thing brought (aside from other tools and widgets or whatever) and it was from IKEA. He built it on the Island, like he did with the pylons. -- Clayburn 23:20, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Blooper/Continuity Errors - More Differences in Desmond's Appearance

In addition to the disappearing ring, Desmond's appearance overall changes from him being on the plane ("LA X, Part 1") to being in the airport. He is wearing a different suit and his hair is styled differently. He is also now clean-shaven, wheareas on the flight in "LA X, Part 1", he was stubbled. Desmond's face changes from clean-shaven to stubbled throughout the flash-sideways portion of this episode (for example, he is clean-shaven in the airport, then stubbled again in Widmore's office). I have added these notes to the article, in the appropriate section. --Somanysnowcherriesfallinginfrance 22:48, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• Pretty silly really. We don't see him the whole time - in fact he dissappears during the LAX ep - why shouldn't he change clothes , brush his hair and shave in that time? So I'm pulling this, just as I said when I made the earlier edit.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   08:29, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
  • Whenever I fly I see frequent flyers do this all the time. Some even shampoo their hair in the sink with the little $1 bottles. I'm starting to think the ring is an UQ not a blooper. Or at least..it will be.--Lucky Day 03:06, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Charles Kane, Are you insane?

• You took out my "Desmond wet clothes" blooper reference twice.
• "Desmond's clothes seemed dry when he confronted Charlie at the hospital after getting fished out of the ocean. He also appears to wear the exact same (dry) outfit when he met Eloise, Daniel and Penny as if it was filmed out of sequence. "
• For this reason. "expensive quick dry wool"
• Daniel was completely submerged in ocean water and did not change clothes for the rest of the day.
• His clothes barely looked damp when he was being examined by the doctor, like he had been sweating.
• Even if you wrung out the suit, it would had been still oozing water for the rest of the day. It would had at least provoked comments from Eloise and Penny later on.
• You can see that with Penny, is shirt was pressed.
• And there is no such thing "Quick drying wool"
• If you think it can be done. Put on your best quick drying suit, give me the pleasure of shoving you into an ocean harbor. See if you can conduct meetings for the rest of the day without people saying WTF?

Superpuppy 21:37, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

• The producers made a point of showing wet patches on both his jacket and shirt while he was being examined by the female Dr at the hospital. That alone means it wasn't a "blooper". Then somewhat tongue in cheek I suggested the "quick drying suit" idea. I had such a suit (light weight fine wool) and it did dry very quickly but I never jumped in the pool to try it out! I accept that Desmond's grooming throughout the day better than would be expected and I guess you might call that a continuity error. Still he may have called George and got a change of clothes brought to him when he was picked up to go see Eloise. It's quite likely, but instead you resort to calling me insane! Well we don't call it a continuity error that Desmond is so composed after being driven off the pier, nearly drowned, had 2 sets of "hallucinations", lost his car. And neither should we. Its a fictional drama in which we accept certain inconsistencies for the sake of the story. Calm down the rhetoric, I don't think its a blooper and I have reasons to support that, I edited based on that. I may be insane but not based on that edit.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   00:58, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

A better main image?

You know what I'm looking for?

I feel this image most grasps the motifs and thematic elements of Happily Ever After. -- Clayburn 22:52, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• No. That's a horrible image. Not only is the expression on Desmond's face (due to being in mid-speech) awful, Eloise's big white hairdo also partially obscures the image. Besides, there's a vote taking place for 9 other images up the page a bit.--Somanysnowcherriesfallinginfrance 23:00, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

• No, please. It makes me laugh. --Dr. James (4 8 15 16 23 42) 00:00, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

• Looks like he's going in for a kiss. Phobia27 00:16, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
  • Well, she does know what he's looking for. -- Clayburn 00:32, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
    • Ha ha ha. She hopes he's going to plant a big juicy wet one on her. -- AlexDeLarge 10:35, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
• He looks like he just ate a lemon.--Pittsburghmuggle 06:58, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
• Come on guys there is a vote fest "Main Image Change" currently item 30 above!    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   08:31, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Coming back from the dead...

Seeing that jaded look in Desmond's eyes reminded me of the look that Sayid had after he was drowned. When Sayid comes back to life he has a weird attitude, as if he has no control over what's happening and he's just going with the flow - Des has the same exact attitude when he wakes up. I'm pretty sure there's a connection with their attitudes and the repeated phrase : "Whatever happens, happens." Why would they have this attitude? Also, I think this is connected with the idea that Ben wanted to kill Whidmore, but Ben says "We both know I cant do that" , and of course, when MIB says "Do you know how long I've wanted to kill you?". Perhaps they can't be killed. Maybe the real Locke will come back from the dead in the same fashion that Des and Sayid have.--Ugmoe 23:41, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Sub island arrival timeline

There's this one detail that just keeps BUGGING me. The leads that allow to calculate the time of Widmore's arrival on the Island are sort of inconsistent. Desmond was shot by Ben directly prior to 316 flight and is told to have been unconscious for 3 days. Although it is unclear how long Desmond was in the hospital before Widmore's team kidnapped him, it would have to be about 5-6 days, since the on-island timeline marks Widmore's arrival about 8-9 days after 316 crash. But there was also the theory about 316 time-travelling during the crash (which I cannot find information if was proven or not, apart from clip-show comment), which would make the timeline only more inconsistent. So it leaves few explanations, and I actually have no idea, which one is the simplest:

• the sub time-travelled during approach to the Island to match flight 316 timeline
• Desmond was safe in hospital for a few days before Widmore's team "claimed" him
• the 316 flight indeed time-travelled, but a few days to the future, instead of past (I don't know if it's consistent with other events)

Plus, any of above would mean that Widmore has broken a World Record in quick-finding the Island (and I suppose he had to use the same "window" as flight 316, since Eloise mentiones that it would be unique opportunity) Emkael 11:00, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

• • It does seem telling that Widmore had loaded the sub with the pylons & solenoid equipment, and had a new science & security team ready to go. But he had gone to LA from London. Although he & Eloise fought outside the hospital, with the Island/all life at stake I'm certain Eloise would give Charles access to the Lamp Post. We saw it calculating many 'windows' of where/when the Island would be - it was just problematic finding a trans-pacific flight that coordinated. The Lamp Post was the DI's method of finding the Island repeatedly, via the Galaga, so it has to be the method Widmore got his bearings. Time-traveling to catch 316 just seems too far a stretch, the sub had to have left LA after 316, and 316 had its own tiny window. The sub has to be behind 316 a few days. Duncan905 15:58, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Hydra station article update

Can someone take a stab at updating the Hydra station page? We now know it had a power generating plant - does that look like a big enough operation to send power back to the main island? We know the Tempest wasn't the power plant, so we might've gotten a mystery solved. We got some new outside/inside views in this ep as well. Duncan905 16:13, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

• How do we know the Tempest wasn't the power plant?--Frakkin Toaster 16:57, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

References to The Matrix?

I couldn't help notice several similarities between this episode and the first movie of The Matrix trilogy: This episode dealt heavily with the fact that there are two "realities" and with the importance of choices. At the end, after a sort of an "awakening", the one revealed as the chosen ends with a very similar statment, "I want to show them something". Maokun 03:20, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

Desmond in the reflective surface

Every episode that featured one of the main characters in a Flashsideways looking into a mirror had that character stop for a moment and stare into the reflection as if seeing something on the other side or remembering/feeling something vaguely related to the 'Island Timeline'. In this episode Desmond does clearly the same thing standing in front of the the Oceanic board. The author of the paragraph that describes that part of the episode in this synopsis decided to interpret Desmonds pondering as "examining" or "scrutinizing" the board. Everyone else will agree that Desmond instead follows the same pattern that the writers of the show developed for the other main characters, namely what I described above. There are various reasons why that is a fact: 1. Desmond does not move his eyes while he stares at the board, 2. he startles as Hugo adresses him as if deep in thought, 3. he has no reason to examine/scrutinize the arrival board of his own flight and 4. it is unlogical that the writers would all of a sudden depart from their "mirror as a window into another dimension/timeline" theme with Desmond. Moving ones eyes is vital for examining and scrutinizing, as it is for inspecting, studying and scanning. I've changed the paragraph once and I will do it again and I want to ask you for your assistance in keeping the synopsis of the episode true to what happenend on the screen. One08 23:39, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

• "as if seeing something on the other side" is entirely your interpretation, and is subjective. It may be so but we have not been shown it to be so in the episodes. "Desmond does clearly the same thing" - it may be clear to you but it is not clear to me or a straw poll of my family and others. We should all be careful in claiming things are clear. Most frequently it is our interpretation which may or may not turn out to be correct. Actually in this case the differences from the mirror scenes are substantial. For starters it is not a mirror, we see a reflection but looking straight on does Desmond? In each other main cases (Sun, Kate and Jack) they appear to see something in their reflection that catches them, this is not the same as "seeing something on the other side or remembering/feeling something vaguely related to the 'Island Timeline'", nor what Desmond does here. Again you have made a subjective judgment as to what you have seen. It is encouraged by the dramatist but we don't know it's real meaning yet. The episode write up needs to be neutral and not include (your) assumptions.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   02:16, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

"Desmond's reflection is seen in the Oceanic Airlines arrivals board as he is looking at it lost in thought."

• This works great to open the paragraph & is as much as can be told without thought bubbles.

One thing it made me notice though - there is still no mention anywhere about the 'gliding-through-clouds' transition?? Even in trivia? Pretty unique, I thought. If we're talking reverie with possible glimpsing through timelines, it's kind of similar to Jack's window transitions in LA_X. Duncan905 16:31, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

• Desmond also sees himself in the reflection a pair of glass doors as he walks up to them.--Pittsburghmuggle 16:54, April 11, 2010 (UTC)

'Make Time' / combining Trivia items

"In "The Variable" young Daniel tells his mother he enjoys playing the piano and insists he can "make time" for it. In the flash-sideways timeline Daniel accomplishes this. (Irony) "

• ""Time" is not a literary technique. Also, no need to use the word "literally," and we're never shown that Daniel realizes this.)"
  • Lionofdharma, after I restored your undo & edited it as you suggested - getting rid of Daniel being happy/not happy, aware of his success & not mentioning "Time" as a LT, it's gone again. Not sure if it could really be that big a problem to combine Literary Techniques with Recurring Themes to save duplicating similar entries. It's all Trivia, right? In any case, FST Daniel is a pianist, which pays off that line in The Variable. I'm surprised there's doubt that FST Daniel is aware of his success, given he says "I think I already did." Now, he's not saying "I succeeded in becoming a piano player", true, but he's also uncomfortable with the means to the ends that his equations point to. I'm restoring this point under Time, and I guess the irony of how that all played out will just have to be implied. Duncan905 17:13, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
    • Again LoD, no discussion? This point 100% belongs, along with the other mention of 'time' by Eloise. The list of Recurring Themes does need updating, as car crashes also don't have an entry in the table, but both article pages leave no doubt they are recurring themes. Back to the "make time" reference payoff, you'd prettymuch need to adopt the argument that detonating Jughead (Daniel's plan) did not create the FST to argue pulling the entry as somehow presumptuous. And like I continue to point out, FST Dan Widmore supposes that the whole Flash Sideways TIME-line is the result of what he drew & believes he carried out. Nobody's arguing he did it just to play the piano, but the fact FST Daniel was able to devote his life to the piano merits mentioning the point in the OT where that door was closed to Daniel, and his mention of time at the time. Duncan905 20:10, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

This is the first time I've seen this discussion, and truthfully I didn't remember until now making the first edit. In any case, I don't care. Do whatever you'd like; you make good arguments. Last night I was just trying to keep the Cultural References section clean and found a way to add indirect references by including them in the Recurring Themes section. And then I thought I'd do a bit of cleanup as well. I looked at the link to the actual Portal for the first time last night and was shocked at how many were not included in the Navigation box. That Portal needs to updated, IMO (only SyOps can do it). Anyway, sorry to upset you. —   lion of dharma    talk    email   22:23, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

• I appreciate your words, and no worries. It's just too cool of a foreshadowing not to note. Duncan905 17:54, April 18, 2010 (UTC)

Trivia: Cafe at Melrose and Sweetzer

Currently the Trivia section states that there is no coffe shop on Melrose and Sweetzer in L.A. but there is just a antique shop. Looking at Google Street-View and here suggest there is at least a restaurant exactly at that crossing. You can surely have a cafe there. Maybe we will see it in the next epsiode. For me it is much more interesting that it might be this exact restaurant than that there is some antique shop. What do you think? Maybe we can change it. --Dossi 01:00, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

• • I hope Penny doesn't think Dolce is the coffee shop. That would be a huge blow to Dez' chances methinks.--Lucky Day 03:13, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Electromagnetism as a recurring theme in this episode

I was wondering, there doesn't seem to be much discussion about EM in this weeks episode page or much of it in prior episode summaries. This week includes incidents such as when Desmond's "flash" is caused by EM during the MRI. When Desmond is in the "box" with the giant coil(s), this is juxtaposition of when he's in the MRI, which is also a giant coil around a magnet. In both scenes he is asked if he has any metal objects on him because the magnetic force is so great in both scenarios.

There's all kinds of tangents involved including: The Swan, Pockets of EM energy, Geological surveys/maps, Dharma experiments, its properties, Rose's journey to an EM site to help cure her cancer, Widmore & company's interest now, etc. as well as tangents that start to flow into other themes such as time and space, but going back to those episode summaries as the bigger picture becomes clear, they are largely absent of comments on this theme.

--Creamstar 01:24, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Arranging episode references by chronological order

Hey guys it just hit me the episode references would be much neater and organized if we ordered the episode references by episode. I'm going ahead and doing this for all the season 6 episodes and may do the rest later on. It's a much more logical way to do it than what we have right now which is basically randomly ordered references. InflatableBombshelter 06:38, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

• good idea, good stuff. I did it to this weeks bloopers, worthwhile I think    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   10:43, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

The Doctor

Isn't that doctor in the flash-sideways Zoe? And, am i, as a noob, the first to call it?

File:Placeholder

10:31, April 12, 2010 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rikdewinter (talk • contribs) 2010-04-12T05:31:42.

• No it's not noob! Also Mr Noob, it is correct and polite to always add a new section at the END, so I am moving it there    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   10:37, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Also you have stuffed up big time. Never seen that before - I'm going to delete all your detritus, tho I'm not even sure how you got it here.    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   10:39, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Welcome to the new guy, I guess I just met the boss of the board, right? And, i'm really pretty sure that the doctor IS Zoey. --Rikdewinter 10:49, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
• Meant to be lighter than I came over - welcome. You will see from the cast list at the top of the page the Dr is played by Kayren Butler wheras the delightful Zoe is played by the very experienced Sheila Kelley. (I'm seeing your "My favorite pages" section, I don't know how it got here and I can't work out how to be rid of it. You might ask a SysOp)    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   10:53, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
• You're right, i see now... Should we delete this section, because it embarrasses me..--Rikdewinter 11:01, April 12, 2010 (UTC)
• it's against policy to delete anything from talk pages! Don't worry there's nothing to be concerned about, editors continuously have great ideas which are then trashed. (point being it may be useful to someone else. Actually it's impossible to really delete anything from a wiki - everything is kept). All is well with the world    Charles Kane     talk  contribs   email   11:31, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

• Don't be embarassed. I can't tell you how many times I have been absolutely adamant that I'm correct about something only for someone to provide proof that I couldn't be more wrong if I tried. To err is human, and we're all human. At least I think so. Any cyborgs around here? —   lion of dharma    talk    email   18:26, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

• • • Not a cyborg, a Cylon!--Frakkin Toaster 19:48, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
• Mmmm... we need to see more Zoe. Lots more. As a matter of fact let's go back to all the previous seasons and digitally insert her.--Pittsburghmuggle 00:59, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Not a real blooper - Passing through Customs

The blooper

"When Desmond and Claire collect their bags, they do not pass through customs, despite having just come off an international flight."

Is not necessarily a blooper. I've been on several recent international flights where the passengers are given claim forms to fill out asking name, passport number, address, etc., and if they have anything to declare. If so, list and report values. If not, check the box. The forms are passed back to the flight attendants and, when we get off the plane, we don't have to pass through your typical customs line as shown on TV and in movies. It's extremely convenient. We get to pick up our bags at the regular carousel.

So this is *not* necessarily a blooper and probably should be removed.

Qhorque 17:05, April 12, 2010 (UTC)Qhorque

• How recent, and from which countries? When I flew home from Sydney in 2002, I had to go through customs when I landed at LAX. --Celebok 02:41, April 13, 2010 (UTC)
• February '10 from London to LAX, December '09 from Munich to NYC, and June '09 from Madrid to LAX. In all cases I filled out my form, got off the plane, went to baggage claim, picked up my luggage, and went home. No inspection whatsoever. Qhorque 17:08, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

I would suspect non-US Citizens would be held up in customs at LAX, not the Americans. That would be Claire, Desmond, Sun, Jin and Sayid. Kate probably had a stop being a fugitive.--Pittsburghmuggle 00:56, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

• I could see non-US citizens being segregated in this manner but I don't think we as TV viewers can definitively say beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is standard operating procedure or not. Not unless one of us is a TSA or Homeland Security personnel. So I still say this is a weak "blooper" and stating it really doesn't meet the litmus test for a real blooper.Qhorque 17:08, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Or maybe just maybe it was just unnesessary for the producers to put that in seeing as it doesnt help the plot at - i dunno like at all Sanders-sama 19:38, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Jack

Is it just me, or did Jack go straight home, then pick up his son, go home again, and then to Margo's after he got off the flight in the FST in The Lighthouse ?? If so, would he have been able to be at the hospital where he saw Desmond come in in Happily Ever After? Seems to me that Desmond got off the plane, went straight to Widmores office, then picked up Charlie, where the car ended up in the ocean, and was at the hospital. I could be wrong, but I dont think Jack would have had time to be at the hospital, based on the events shown in The Lighthouse FST. MoeT 19:02, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

Nah. All the Happily Ever After flashsideways happens on September 22nd. The Lighthouse flashsideways happens on September 24th. Gregg nations must be having one hell of a time keeping all this straight though, since all the fsw except Dr. Linus have happened in the couple of days immediately following 815 landing. InflatableBombshelter 22:35, April 12, 2010 (UTC)

• I thought Jack was coming home from the hospital in the Lighthouse flashsideways as he is wearing the blue doctor. shirt. I don't know if the shirt had a specific name. So it's possible for Desmond to meet Jack in the hospital on September 22nd. I'm more curious about Charlie. He was released on September 22nd but 2 days later his brother asked about him at the police station. Shouldn't the polices know Charlie wasn't there anymore?--IceCrash 16:29, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Bartender

When Desmond follows Charlie into the bar, we see a bartender for pouring Charlie a drink. Is it possible to get the name of the actress somehow? --Dossi 00:45, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

• Anything is possible but, in the case of extras, if they are not credited then it's almost impossible to find out the name of the actor. All internet cast lists for this episode don't appear to list any "bartender". Non-speaking roles tend not to get credit but you'd have to know how SAG and AFTRA works to know what's what. Keep searching. Maybe the name will turn up.Qhorque 17:15, April 13, 2010 (UTC)

Cultural References (add discussion when removing please)

• Sláinte - not sure who yanked this, but I'm replacing. Yes, it's the commonest toast if you're a Scot/Brit, but this is a helpful bit of reference for folks in the States. Duncan905 21:50, April 20, 2010 (UTC)